Hi, my name is Paweł. For a quick background, I used to be a Java developer and then I gradually moved to the dark side and currently I'm taking care of several teams of DevOps and developers at Xebia Poland. Today I would like to present you a topic of imposter syndrome. Let's start with a quick background. What is impostor syndrome? What is not an impostor syndrome? Who should be concerned? What is the science around this? We'll then look into the mind of a person with impostor syndrome and see how they think. We'll explore some risks, what things can go wrong and what dark places you can find yourself. We'll look at some mechanisms. The understanding of mechanisms by itself is a little bit helpful. But we will also look at some particular solutions, tips, and tricks on how to do, how to deal with the imposter syndrome, right? start with the background. what is an imposter syndrome? What is not? Should we be concerned? And what is the science there? basically, imposter syndrome is a kind of like psychological pattern or mild personality dysfunction, where a person doubts their skills, abilities, intelligence to do the job. Okay. person doesn't believe should be the place where they are. For instance, if they are some senior developers, they don't believe they should be senior. If they were hired in some company, they don't believe that it should be hired, despite some obvious external evidence of their competence, right? And there is also this constant fear that somebody at some point will find out that we are impostors and then the terrible things will happen. We'll be fired, we'll be demoted, our wife, Lisa, or the dogs will walk away, the fishes will swim away or something like this. so there is this constant and long lasting feeling that may take several months, even years. So the science behind this, there was a paper in the late 70s by Pauline Clance and Susan Eames, and they were researching, say, the environment of high achieving women. So women in academia, with titles of professors, doctors, with lots of research papers, and also in business, directors, CEOs, etc. And there was this, there was this recurring feeling that they don't belong there, they are not good enough, and also somebody at some point will find out that they are impostors. Initially it was thought that it's mostly about women, but then later research proved that impostor syndrome works on both genders, in fact. who should be concerned? Surprisingly, all of us, so depending on the research you look at, there is between 50 or 80 or even 90 percent of people who are experiencing impostor syndrome at some point of their lives. It might happen at many points. For instance, if you are starting the career, you're a junior developer, you think that I shouldn't be hired in the first place, but There are different expectations between junior and senior, of course. And if you are junior, you still might have this experience of five years of computer science study, etc. Somebody decided to recruit you to the company. All right, it might happen when you're switching the careers. So if you used to be a developer, you're moving to management, or used to be QA, or the development, or architect, or whatever else, and direction. If something is changing, there's a high risk of getting an imposter syndrome, and also especially for people that are somewhere really high, right? You have a lot of achievements, you are maybe a famous actor, some kind of celebrity, you're somebody at the top of the company, and it's quite possible that the imposter syndrome will be the strongest here. That is connected with intelligence, right? So intelligent people have this tendency to overthink some problems. and overprepare for issues that are not really there. It's connected with perfectionism, so if you want to, if you want to have things done perfectly or not at all, that might be a problem. It's connected, speaking of the big five of personality traits, there is this neuroticism trait that if you have high, if you are highly neurotic, basically you feel like, feel a lot of fear, strong emotions, stuff like this, you're not very emotionally stable, and this is also something that is Makes you prone to feel like an imposter and experience this fear, right? It's not imposter syndrome. So it's not about imposter syndrome if you're an actual fraud. So if you say on purpose Not you can do something, but you can't. Trying to, trying to make somebody believe that you are good, but you are not. not about momentary doubt, because all of us have those doubts, right? At some point, at some moment, we might feel that we are not good enough. I had a bad day or even a week, but impostor syndrome is about having this issue for months or even years. It's not about, it's not really a mental illness per se. There is no international code of diseases code for that. Although I've read some research in a British paper where they are considering making it an official mental illness. It's not about humbleness per se. humbleness is a nice trait, but if it stops you from, doing some nice stuff and exploring the company and the world, that's a problem. And as I mentioned, it's not really specific to women, right? It was initially thought that it's about women, but it turns out that both genders are affected. Maybe women a little bit more. It also works for, I think all minorities, right? Because if you are in, any kind of minority you might feel stronger needs to prove yourself and there might be an additional doubt and it makes you prone to the imposter syndrome. So if you google top 10 celebrities with imposter syndrome you'll probably find a lot of quotes like this, that seems that I'm somewhere by mistake and every time I appear there I have to prove that I'm actually good or maybe no matter at what point of your career you as you arrive. You still wonder how did you get there? And you are being afraid of being discovered, right? There's this recurring theme of being discovered as a fraud and then losing everything. And there is this feeling of inadequacy and again this theme of somebody will find out that I'm a fraud and everything will be lost. Okay, so now let's look into the mind of a person with impostor syndrome. So what's the thinking there? So whenever we have some success due to our skills or abilities, we will actually attribute this to one of two things. One of those things are seven factors in general. So I was able to do something because I was lucky, right? There were some unfavorable circumstances. So for instance, I was the only person in the recruitment process, so they had to hire me, of course. Maybe I was able to deceive the recruiter that in fact, I'm better than I really am. All right, maybe there was some misjudgment on their part, so maybe there was, Maybe I was speaking with an engineering manager who is not a technical person, so he was not able to really judge my technical skills. He just thought that, hey, I'm a nice person, maybe I should be hired. Maybe it's about connections, right? I was able to get a job or do something because of my connections. And here, disclaimer, connections are not something really bad, right? It's a part of your life. So network is a part of, it's your assets, like a skill or ability or experience. So don't be afraid to use your connections as an asset. Of course, I'm not talking about, some pathological situations like in politics, probably, but just healthy use of your network. But there's one possibility. I was successful because of external factors, okay? The other possibility is overwork. So I was successful because I put additional hours, like I was doing countless reviews. I was doing the overwork and without even logging this in a company system, because it would, I would be discovered that I'm a fraud because I should be able to do this faster, right? Not spend that much time. So either external factors or overwork, that's our thinking. We should also note that all of us have this kind of a belief filter, belief system in our head. So because the world is complicated place, we do some simplification, some explanation how things work, some categories, we put people, things in some categories, right? This belief system forms up until you're 20, more or less 20 years old, 2025, and later it's a little bit difficult to change that. If you are getting some information that's contradicting your belief system, you will try to, if it's not fitting very well, I can try to bend it a little bit to fit. But if it's trying to contradict your system, I might just, plainly discard the feedback of the information. So it will be important a little bit later. Now, 0s and 1s, we are in computer science, so 0s and 1s seems to be a nice thing. But at the end, I'm thinking about this perfectionism here again, right? So if you're a perfectionist, Everything is either zero, total trash, or one perfect. And we know there's no 23 perfect, so even if it's zero, it's 90, 98 percent, 99 percent, anything. We just run this down to zero, and it's trash for you. This is a problem with impostor syndrome, because you might think that almost everything that you do is actually trash, where in fact it's almost perfect. how does stone translate to IT, or to technical work, or knowledge work in general? So in general, we have Mostly smart people in 19, or at least we choose to believe so. So it's about this intelligence that I mentioned earlier. If you're intelligent, you're thinking about a lot of problems, sometimes overthinking. It might not be very good. Our industry is intangible. What does it mean? So it's difficult to judge the quality of what we do, right? if you look at some counter examples from classical craftsmanship, for instance, let's take medieval blacksmith with his forging swords. You can take the sword into your hand, right? You can check if it's balanced, you can check if it has some sharp edge. You can see if it has some nice ornaments, if it looks good. If you think about baker or painter or anything like this, it's similar. We are used to judging this type of quality. But in IT, what we do is sometimes magical for people. from outside our field, right? So it's, for instance, let's do an experiment and let's try to, describe to your grandmother that you prepared a nice suite of automated tests or your method has a low cyclomatic complexity, right? It's difficult. And whenever it is difficult to explain what we do, it's an area where there's a lot of doubt and the feeling of being an imposter might be magnified here. Maybe it's a little easier on the, say, front end or design side, if you are creating some UIs or websites, etc. You can look at the website and say, okay, it has some nice animations, buttons, etc. But it's more difficult on this, maybe more back end or obscure side. areas of what we do. Also our industry is growing rapidly. So uncle Bob around I believe eight or nine years ago mentioned that on average the median age of median experience of a software developer is five years. So half of the developers have less than five years of experience. There is a great influence of people into the industry. Those people are creating a lot of things, that other people use. So we have new version of languages, libraries, new framework, new methodologies. We can do a lot of things in, let's say, different layers of abstraction or software and deconstruction of our software and systems. And it makes you think that after a few years there is so much Things going on, so much technology, so much knowledge and skills, and you should be learning all of that, but in fact, it's impossible, it's just too much, just a smart portion of it, and it's normal. And then we have this, let's say, approve, make it till you make it, so we're hearing about some companies that are curing cancer in the garage, or fixing the problem of, of cancer. shortage in Africa, right? And it might be overwhelming, so everything on the social media should be, should be consumed with a grain of salt. All right, let's move on to risks. What can basically go wrong with imposter syndrome on dark places you can visit as a result? first of all, when you have this constant fear that somebody will discover that you're an imposter, you have to have this constant process of defense, right? you have to check who is in the room, what you can say, what is safe, and basically consumes your energy, because it's like this process running in your head, consuming your mental energy, willpower, if you will, and if you compare to computer, the cyclist of your processor, right? it makes you exhausted at the end of the day. If you are afraid that something bad will happen, you will be discovered, it might lead to some anxiety states. There is the whole topic of burnout, 12 stages of burnout, a lot of presentation, a long topic. But in the end, it can lead to some really nasty places, mental problems, such as depression and similar. Furthermore, there's a problem, there might be a problem with balance, right? If you choose this path of overwork, then you can sacrifice your private life. You might have an issue with relationship, because if you don't want to be discovered as fraud, then you will naturally avoid people, either at work or, but also private things. keep people at distance. There's the thing with procrastination, so basically you might want to avoid situation where you will be tested, when somebody can find out that you're an imposter. And this in terms might lead to issue of priorities, so imagine you have a sprint, there are some important tasks and less important tasks, or maybe easier and harder tasks, so you might want to focus on the stuff that you are comfortable with, not the stuff that really matter, and in the end it might actually lead to failing the sprint. And changes, people with impostor syndrome might be not really afraid of changes because that's a moment of test where somebody might find out that they are impostors or perceived impostors, so they might want to, might, avoid looking for a new job or maybe changing a project within your current organization and miss many opportunities. What else can be missed? All right, so knowledge, basically in order to learn skills and develop, you have to get out of your comfort zone just a little bit. So if you're afraid of being discovered, you just naturally stick to things that you know well. You might, miss some occasions for promotion in the company, maybe some pay raise. And also, the company, the team, the whole IT industry misses the ideas and knowledge that you have been providing, because you are afraid to speak up, or afraid that, what you say is stupid or something like this, right? Let's look at some mechanisms, like psychological patterns and stuff around that. And knowledge about this is helpful by itself. As we will also get to some concrete tips later on. So first of all, the sheer realization that there is something like an impostor syndrome, right? It's not that there is something wrong with me, it's just a psychological thing, impostor syndrome. This is the first thing that if you realize that you might be in a much better place. The second thing is, This is very common. It's not like it's one or two percent of people. It's basically half of us probably watching this. And also it's probably to some extent solvable. Whether it's fully solvable or not, that's slightly philosophical questions. It's can you get rid of all your demos and stuff like this. It's hard to say, but you can for sure, diminish the effects of that, and you can learn how to deal with that, for instance, how to drink tea with your demons and live with them, right? In order not to be too softish in this talk, I have some diagram for you. So this is the central mechanism in imposter syndrome, the imposter cycle. We're running in some kind of cycles, and how does it look? So we start with tasks. Starting with task, we approach this, we have some anxiety, we have some worry about this, can we make it this time? Maybe they will discover this time that I'm an imposter, but at some point we have to make a choice and do something. So we have two paths to choose here. We can either go with over preparation, so it's additional time, over work, the time that I'm not even logging in the system, I will make countless, reviews, countless fixes, etc. I get a lot of knowledge. put additional effort, or maybe I can go the procrastination route. So I assume that, okay, there's nothing to be done. They will just discover that I'm an imposter, right? Or on the other hand, maybe I will be lucky this time, but I just want to postpone this, pressure and feeling that I will be tested. So it reminds me the situation on the university when I was studying that there is an exam in half an hour or something like this, and at some point I just decide I'm cramming from the book. front of the room. At some point, I just decide to close the book, put it away, get up, get some walk, get some fresh air, etc. I just, I don't want to think about this, and this is like a procrastination mechanism. whichever path we choose in the end, since we are competent and intelligent, etc. we are able to succeed in this task, right? So we have this accomplishment, we have the relief that okay, maybe this time I was able to somehow slip by, right? So I got the positive feedback and here is the time when this filter kicks in our head that hey, We are not really good, we are not intelligent, so whatever they are saying they are just nicer. Whatever doesn't fit my belief system, so I discard it or ban it, because I have an explanation on what happened. It was either the extra effort, I put additional hours, and this is the reason why I succeeded, somebody else would be able to do this in a much shorter time, or it was just a luck, so I was able to succeed because of some favorable circumstances, because I didn't put that much effort. All right, so I'm not really In my head there is this image that I'm not really this, smart, intelligent, capable person, but there are some other explanations, some external factors, extra effort and luck. So let's continue all this positive feedback. Now my perception of being an imposter kind of increases with each cycle, and then we arrive on another task, and the cycle repeats, basically. Another interesting bias in our thinking is the perception of knowledge. So we have those mechanisms to simplify the world, so we have this in our categories for people. You might have the category of general developer, general manager, general QA, etc. And you assume that they are mostly similar. So what happens is that if we talk to one person, say developer one, get a piece of information A, to another developer, another piece of information, third developer, the third piece of information. In our head what happens is that all those developers merge into this one developer, generic developer, who knows all of those things. So each of those developers knows all those things and we might think that A general developer knows really a lot when we don't, and this is this left picture, but the right is, the reality is that the knowledge of various people might be similar in size to ours in the right picture. Another interesting effect is the Dunning Kruger effect. there's basically a, it's a relationship between confidence and competence. whenever we gain some competence, in some, say, new skill or some new path, They're quite quickly, we are getting out of confidence and disclaimer, people are not very good at, differentiating confidence and competence. If somebody's speaking with competence, you assume that the person is of confidence, we assume that the person is competent as well. What happens is, when we learn a new skill, something starts working, we can produce a green path, some early successes, and our confidence shoots up, we are reaching the speed of Mount Stupid where we think that we are really good, but then we notice that, okay, we made some mistakes, maybe we changed some projects, had some fuck ups, realized how broad the field really is, and we are falling quite quickly from this peak of monstipity into the valley of despair, and our confidence is, let's say, decreasing quite rapidly. And now in order to regain this confidence, it takes time, a lot of experience, and with years of experience we are regaining our confidence, as we are reaching this level of sustainability. Okay, and how is this relevant to imposter syndrome? Basically, somebody's You know, it is value of despair or climbing the slope of enlightenment, and if you meet a person who is on the peak of non stupid, you assume that this person is confident, quite competent. It's confident. If it's confident, it should be competent. And we think that, hey, this person has two, three times less experience than us, but it's quite competent. maybe it's something wrong with me when in reality, you might be in a different places on this Kruger effect chart. And so we shouldn't be too worried about this. From my experience for software development, basically, Mount Stupid is somewhere around one, one and a half years. in a career. It's the experience from technical recruitment but probably a little bit of myself as well. So we have this, young people who say I have 10 out of, 9 out of 10 in Java, 9 out of 10 in SQL depending which type you're on, etc. And please recruit me, give me money, etc. Good. But then they realize that maybe they are not that good after all. Another interesting effect is the spotlight effect. So basically, think of ourselves. We are much more egoistic than we would like to admit. Okay, so we mostly focus on ourselves, and we think that other people focus on us as well, which they do not. for instance, imagine that you are in this group photo situation, right? You have the photo taken, you are examining it, and what's the first thing that you do? Probably look at yourself, whether your tie is straight or whether you are not staying with some kind of sauce or something like this. So other people are not really that actively looking at us and at our mistakes. And, and because of that, we shouldn't be that afraid, to speak up, to talk to extreme ideas, et cetera, because we won't be judged that much as we think. Another thing worth knowing is the curse of knowledge. small children have this feature that they assume that everyone else knows and feels the same as they do. And we grow up from that to an extent. Okay? Because. There are those classical misunderstandings between technical people and business people where they assume that the other party knows the same as they do. But also I had this experience two years of being the Java GIF master at our company and part of the job was looking for people that would like to speak on our quarterly internal conferences and it was difficult because people were shy that's one thing but also if They were thinking that they have nothing to say, interesting to say to other people, that everyone else knows this, what they do, right? And it's not really true, because people have different sets of knowledge. And if you're a senior developer, you might have a lot of experience, probably have a lot of experience that you can just share with other people. If you're a junior developer, you might just know some library or a new version of language that others don't and this is also a valuable topic and so basically whenever you think that you don't have anything interesting to say because other people knows that they are out of there's a lot of people who don't right so it's worth to try and present stuff to other people right so let's move to some concrete solutions and tips for dealing with impostor syndrome. First of all, once I encountered the thread on Twitter, the X or whatever it is called now, basically the idea is that there were people from computer science, IT, but also engineering and other stuff with a lot of years of experience in their fields, and they were mentioning Some seemingly basic stuff that they have to Google or look up or check in notes or copy from previous projects, et cetera. So especially for junior people might seem that if you're a Java developer, something you might, you have to know everything about Java and everything about your framework, et cetera. Or in fact, I will tell you a secret. Everyone Googles stuff, basically, right? Copies from previous projects, etc. My personal confession is that I used to write in Java for, 12 or more years. And currently, I don't remember how to read a file into the memory, a file from the disk into the memory. I always have to Google that because there are, nested streams, etc. I used to know this probably 10 years ago at some point when I was doing the certification, but not anymore. Alright, so Basically, don't think that you should be, you should know everything, everyone is googling, that's okay. Shift words about comparisons. We tend to compare ourselves to other people, but this is not really a good idea because you have different materials for comparison, right? We can compare this to object oriented programming. If you look at people as objects, if you look at yourself, you have access to your, internal variables and the history of your state and what you were doing, how you were feeling, etc. But if you look at other people, you only just see the public standard they choose to show you. After that, this is filtered by your belief system, internal belief system. So the only really good comparison is if you are comparing yourself to your earlier snapshots in time with yourself, right? look at you, what have you learned in the previous month, previous year, or ten years, or whatever, and this is some kind of comparison that you can use. All others are, probably wrong. All right, a little bit about imperfections. Japanese people have this art of fixing broken ceramic with gold, right? They have this notion that the ceramic, or some object, a piece of work, or a person is broken, then it makes them. Unique, and they have soul because of that, right? So whenever you think of yourself that your work is broken, or you are broken, might just think that, hey, you have a soul, you are unique, that makes you unique. And this is positive. All right, a little bit about computer games, right? Achievements in computer games. We have achievements in computer games for a reason, because, they release a little bit of dopamine in your bloodstream. It makes you feel better. whenever you're really not feeling very well, you might think about creating a list of achievements for yourself, right? the list of projects that you did, some schools you went to, studies, books that you have read, some courses that you finished, etc. Stuff like this. This might help you. Kind of similar to a CV or maybe a LinkedIn profile, but maybe something else. And whenever you're in this, not a very good mood, you can get back to this list and see that, Hey, I achieved so much. I'm not that bad. Some people say that it works better if it's in a physical form. So we have all those, clouds. But in the end, if you write it down on a piece of paper, put it in a drawer, it might have a little bit more power to our analog mind, let's say. Unless your house burns down and your dog eats the paper, of course. And besides that, you're good. Again, about social media, if you see anything on social media, any successes, etc., I should keep in mind that everything is filtered, everything was chosen to be there, and also it's going through your belief, internal belief filters, so you should take it with a grain of salt. About job ads, so yeah, we have the space unicorns, you can say, sometimes we can see a list of requirements, very long list of requirements of various stuff on the job ads, but you should be aware that those are mostly wish lists, right? The employer doesn't require you to know all of that, maybe just some of that. There's a piece of trivia about the IBM in, I believe, late 70s. There was a research, how people respond to internal job ads for internal projects. Turned out that men were applying when they met about 60 percent of criteria, but women usually had to met around 90 percent. So ladies were maybe not that competent, at least not confident, I'm sorry, at least at this time. All right, so our brains, reptile brain, I have to be aware that, our brains have these layers that were created in a, during the process of evolution over hundreds of millions of years. We have this primitive parts that basically take care of, basic, our basic instincts, survival instincts and reacting to threats. So whenever you're. Say coding or doing some difficult mental work and you find yourself at this position that you're stuck You don't know what to do. You don't understand how something works. Start to worry. I'm not that good. They will fire me Terrible start to feel this fear and whenever the fear sets in basically cuts off your let's say the new part of the brain, the new cortex that does all the thinking and programming and stuff and leaves everything to this primitive part that deals with threats and security. So whenever you think that you're afraid and you think that, my god, I'm stupid, you're basically making yourself stupid. blood flow to the neocortex is reduced, and this is the self fulfilling prophecy, basically. So whenever you find yourself in this situation, it's better to break away from this thought, just get up, get a walk, get something to drink, talk to somebody, etc. Just try to detect this pattern and not succumb to all those dark thoughts there. A little bit about talent, so is there Does something like a talent exist or not? So Edison has this famous quote that 99 percent of success is hard work, just 1 percent is talent. In general, people who are successful usually just are persistent, so they are trying some things in a different way many times to make it work. And in order to do that, you probably have to like it just a little bit, to experiment many times. Basically, my advice is to look around in the company, the industry, because our industry is quite broad. You can do a lot of things, really. You can be developer, QA, architect, DevOps, you can be some agile role, some scrum role, maybe some management, etc. There's really a lot of things to do, and you shouldn't be measuring the developers, just by the number of lines of code or something like this, right? Even if you want to just keep the label of developer, You can be a developer and do a lot of things. You can have some attitude. You can be better at talking to people, organizing something. Maybe you're more on the DevOps stuff. Maybe you are just this person, like a good spirit of the team that's removed from the projects. Basically breaks the whole team and you lose three people in fact, just one person if you effectively work with three people, something like that. So try to look around and see what's there and experiment and maybe you will find a better niche for yourself as well in the industry. A little bit about recruitment. So if you have a chance to be taken for a recruiter, it's a. It's a nice opportunity to see this, see that people don't really sometimes know the things that you do. So this knowledge is different for different people. Of course, it's also a trap because you might have this urge to, come up with some difficult questions that nobody will really know by heart. Everybody's just looking at the documentation. But it's not a good idea because, the I think recruitment is that we just want to get nice people for our company to lift your ego. However, you can also get something from yourself in the process. just don't be nasty. A little bit about remote work, right? So a lot of us are just working. fully remotely, even though we have office in our town, our vicinity. So whenever you think that maybe you have this kind of, you feel like imposter, and if you go to your cave or just don't talk to people, just work remotely all the time, it reduces the risk of being discovered, right? But if you want to be cured for imposter syndrome, you have to expose yourself to the stressor, actually. So it's a nice idea if you have possibility to sometimes, just go to work, talk with people. and it will help you a little bit. And we are in the topic of talking. What is this trick? If you suspect that you're a team leader, which is a good teammate, and you suspect that you have some people with heavy imposter syndrome around you, the next trick is to, talk to them and be a little bit vulnerable, maybe. tell something about how you screw up at some time, you are not feeling very secure, etc. The idea is to just, normalize that we are not perfect at work, right? Sometimes we screw up and we do not have to be perfect. And maybe over time it will just, normalize this idea. There was a nice book by George Brzezinski called Classicalogia. It's a bit difficult to translate to English. It's like a science of patting on the bottom, on the back or on the head. Basically, it was my idea that We have this tank of container of sweetness in us, and we fill this container, but by saying something nice or having nice interactions with people. And then we take away from this tank when we have some difficult interactions, we have to give some difficult feedback or something like that. And of course, The idea here is that when the tank is empty, it's not good to take away from this tank because there's nothing there and it will lead to some difficult reaction probably. So before you have some difficult interactions in mind with a person, it's good to fill this tank a little bit, so add some positive interaction. Help a little bit. Appreciate. Say something nice. It can be something so small as to liking a message on Teams or Facebook or whatever on that person. And last but not least, the issue of therapy. you maybe in Poland, there is a little bit of social stigma that's. Okay, I'm not crazy, I will not go to therapies, but in States or Western Europe it's much more normalized, right? Most people have their shrinks. don't be ashamed of asking for help and talking to professional. It's really, there's really no shame in that, if you are feeling overwhelmed or dealing with some issues. A lot of companies, especially after the COVID 19, have some programs that can support you in that. some free therapy hours or something like that. Check, checking your company, maybe they have something, right? If you want to test yourself, there's of course a possibility of that if you google clans ip scale. IP here starts from Impostor Phenomenon, that's basically a 20 question test on Impostor Syndrome with questions rated 1 to 5. if you put it into Google, you'll find a PDF with those questions. If you don't want to calculate it manually, you can look at psychtest. org or some other. Other, websites where they have automated tests. I did two or three such tests after normalizing to a hundred percent to now that I'm around 42 or 43% still impostor syndrome. So it didn't go away fully, but I believe at that I'm much better spot than 10 years ago, for instance. So it's worth to. Work on that. So guys, this is my, this QR code is my LinkedIn. So you're welcome to join. I also have the Twitter or Excel, whatever you call it now, while it's still working. And if you prefer to read, maybe not to look at presentations, I have a blog. Just called how to train your java.com. It's not really about Java for probably a few years now. It's more about general software and people were, and there is an article about impostor syndrome there as well, probably five or six po six posts ago. And there might be some additional links like to this Twitter threat and maybe some different approach to the, to the problem. All right, so that's basically it. So take care of yourselves and people around you, and thank you very much.